Former vice president Dick Cheney and others have sought to justify the torture of suspected terrorists by claiming it was necessary to obtain actionable intelligence, did not conflict with US and international law, and was needed to safeguard national security.
As one that has lived on both sides of the border, I truly believe this was a mistake, I am not sure how President Obama will handle all of this. Seemingly, Dick wishes to make a name for himself and justify what he did. If he was from any other country he would be making his own demise as he is placing himself in a very delicate. Meaning if you commit war crimes internationally you face a court in Geneva.
Torture as we have seen it now, is something that was and still is against international law. Any country that has every utilized this method of torture would face an international tribunal. We are living in a global world now and just when things are moving forward, everything from the past eight years is coming back.
I do believe in accountability. But over that past eight years it seems to be reviving itself. Certainly torture was not warranted. But as we all go about things I think that it's really time for people in high positions to be accountable but we are just people with our own views and as one that has lived on both lands, it's really something when you see all that has taken place. Having lived on both sides, I feel there are so many areas that have to be cleaned up and cleared off - before there really can be any momentum in obtaining the ideals that we so looked for from President Obama. As there is too much and there is one government that is watching everything like a silent giant it’s the government of China.
But that is just my take on this, we are people that just reside in our countries and wish for the things to be peaceful again. We don’t want things to continue nor are we so different. Yet if any of us had a member of our families go through something that was a criminal act within war. We would wish to take the appropriate justification. We all don’t like to face some of the things that are the truth but I think there will be much money spent over this situation that brings everything since September 11th. I am sure we all wish it never would have happened, and at least by this time it was over and done with. My guess is there will be so much media, millions of dollars spent on something that will not have any resolve to it. Having been raised in America and lived a half my life there and the other half here in Canada I really do look at things from both sides.
well....if the terrorist that killed 3000 people ...had a Nuke..and was about to let it go off..somewhere in the states lets just say...I would want our CIA to pluck every nail off their fingers...no?..but i guess you would want the terrorist to kill more?...
ReplyDeleteI am dual having been raised in the USA and love it. I will say that no there are areas that are not correct. Waterboarding is an international crime.
ReplyDeletewhile we are at ..this...please condemn...terrorist cutting off ..heads of innocent people..and ..ohh wait they do not take prisoners..so called POW..dang the where is the Geneva convention..my friend...when they capture our soldiers they..take drills and put them in their eye sockets and they burn their testicles ....then they..slit their necks.....
ReplyDeleteno water boarding is not a crime....our Navy Seals do training with water boarding...i know
ReplyDeleteyou tell me which side you are on?
ReplyDeletewho is the bad guy my friend?
ReplyDeletewho would you rather be captured with?
ReplyDeletebe honest
ReplyDeleteDick Cheney is an evil evil man...I think we need a world criminal court such as we had in Nuremberg after WW2 and hang this man and his boss by their testicles.
ReplyDeletehmm maybe someone will answer?
ReplyDeletemaybe enchanted?
ReplyDeleteI think I just did...
ReplyDeleteyou rather be held by the terrorist?
ReplyDeleteWaterboarding is not the answer....there are other means. And we have them.
ReplyDeleteor Americans?
ReplyDeletenow come on answer my friends
ReplyDeletei need an answer..
ReplyDeletebodies hung burned ..by terrorist alive ?.....or water boarding ...then a good meal
ReplyDeletecome on ...
ReplyDeletelet me know
ReplyDeleteTorture is wrong. It has been proven it is not an effective tool in interrogations. In fact, there are better ways that get better information and people have been trained in it. So what I hear you saying is that we should be as evil and as disgusting as those that behead, burn bodies alive, etc? Look what we did to Hussein's sons...and then we published photos. Disgusting. We as Americans should be above this..we are not who our enemies want to believe we are but under Bush and Cheney we proved to be just as disgusting and evil as they believed we were.
ReplyDeleteI do believe in freedom of speech lol but Fran I had to delete and block. I am with you on this and the one thing is we can't forget that it's valid to have accountability. We are now I would hope, and there will be much money spent on this Fran but I don't think it will be done again.
ReplyDeleteHey it's late good night to ya! A difference of opinion is fine but that was a tad much from "nakedroadrage". :)
He was getting obnoxious.
ReplyDeleteWell you got some dialogue going with this one
ReplyDeleteCanada is not without it's torture stories, it's just that it isn't done here. The presumed guilty until proven innocent are shipped back to their home countries for their interrogation or if a Canadian citizen supposedly commit a crime on foreign soil, Canada won't take them back. See, clean hands......
ReplyDeleteTorture has very many forms and all of them for one purpose, to enable compliance.
ReplyDeleteBut our enemies should they be allowed to -------- ?
Certainly not, but define enemies.
Today's enemies, or yesterday's enemies?
Yesterday's Ideology or today's.?
China is our friend because we are making more money from our own people.
Every enemy we ever had, is or was our friend.
The wagon rolls on.
The Dollar rules.
Well it did before ----
Not sure if you ever heard of the voo doos that was started in WW2 I believe from Quebec, but this is not about Canada and America - it's about obiedience within a global society.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your remarks Wren and it looks like a great day!
Basically what your asking is should one be able because another does it...
ReplyDeleteThings do change yes. Torture is I guess in the eyes of the beholder. But by law torture does have a compliancy.
Atypical write for my Lyn. I don't often bring this stuff up anymore but I thought I would so I did...
ReplyDeleteYou are absolutely right. Our representatives need to be as accountable as anyone else. America isn't a dictatorship. The representatives are supposed to make judgments based on the will of the people.
ReplyDeleteYou're right Jack. It does seem to be a theater of Washington Politics now more than an examination of unwarranted and inhumane tactics; more about "who knew what and when". The Republicans will protect their own and the Democrats like Nancy Pelosi is already on the defensive.
ReplyDeleteI was brought to believe that one aspect of America was that we wouldn't tolerate torture of helpless people; that's what the totalitarian regimes we were opposed to sanctioned.
Like the end of the Joseph McCarthy Red Scare era in the late 1950's, Americans are starting to come back to their senses. But justice for a guy like Cheney and his co-horts? Not likely.
Cal every nation needs accountability. I have lived on both side and with all that I was not going to write this but I did. I don't hate America as I was raised there but still each government does warrant good government.
ReplyDeleteDo we as people really have a say - sometimes I ponder this.
Doug I just arrived home and in reading this sometimes I wish I left it be but I don't know of any situation that came to be like this. No one back eight years knew what was happening. However I feel that there is a very level land within several countries and no government is perfect but this one I thought I would write as I don't hate America, I love it.
ReplyDeleteI would hope that things move towards a better justice. And I never wrote this with the intent to blemish America. As I have lived there more than half of my life.
I don't feel that justice has been served within the past government, but then again anyone that has any thoughts with regards to what value is would understand it. There is a resolve but from my view from residency in Canada I feel that I am so glad that the government of Canada never got involved in Iraq. That was the marking point I believe.
Here again I say this as one that has lived on both sides. Progress is something that any democratic society wishes.
We hope but at the same time it seems that there is so much underneath it all and this word called proud. Patriotism was based on being proud yet righteous in accord to not just the nation but now by way of international terms.
The Republicans are trying to shift the blame from themselves by pointing towards Nancy Pelosi...frickin responsibility shirkers that they are...so my question is Nancy wasn't the only one who voted for this stuff....where is their culpability?
ReplyDeleteIt happened under THEIR watch and administration...nice try Pubes but I don't think the American people are stupid enough to go for this one. At least I hope we're not.
That is politics - here in Canada right now there was a court order with a very prominent past Prime Minister as he has taken money while in office. Fran it happens everywhere but I so enjoy America as within a few years I do plan if the government is back in place to move back there.
ReplyDeleteThose are my hopes and where will I go probably to New York. If not Florida.
I love NYC but Florida has the weather I really enjoy...
ReplyDeleteDitto here, I love these two countries but when there is a depature with one family member. I have the ability to go where ever I wish. It might be a place in Florida as I have what is like family there that I have kept in contact since I was a kid. NY is great but now I see it as a place from which to visit.
ReplyDeleteA great day to you Fran.
I beg to differ with this.. "No one back eight years knew what was happening. " .. We all knew what was going on, from the stolen election on... It's got nothing to do with loving my country... I do. It's the lying that's going on... I have all the documents from that point forward... The top 3 in the Bush administration need to go to the Hague for trail !!! They have done some of the most horrendous things you could ever imagine! If we lived in a third world country, they wouldn't even be alive today... the people would have snatched them out of power and either had the military execute them or the people would have bludgeoned them to death... tell me I'm not wrong...
ReplyDeleteCanada puts United States on torture list with Syria & Iran - Watch this:
ReplyDeletehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7195276.stm
The United States has been listed as a country where prisoners are at risk of torture in a training document produced by the Canadian foreign ministry.
It also classifies some US interrogation techniques as torture.
The manual - part of a training course on torture awareness for diplomats - also includes Israel, China, Iran and Afghanistan on its watch list.
A government spokesman said the manual did not reflect the views of Canada, which is an ally of the US and Israel.
"The training manual is not a policy document and does not reflect the views or policies of this government," said a spokesman for Foreign Minister Maxime Bernier.
The manual lists US interrogation techniques such as forced nudity, isolation, sleep deprivation and the blindfolding of prisoners under "definition of torture".
It also refers to the US detention camp at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba where a Canadian man is being held. Critics say it ridicules Ottawa's claims that Omar Khadr is not being mistreated.
There was no immediate response from either the US or Israel.
Exonerated
The document was provided to Amnesty International as part of a court case it is bringing against the Canadian government over the treatment of detainees in Afghanistan.
Canada has come under growing criticism following allegations that detainees were tortured in Afghanistan after its soldiers transferred suspects to Afghan security forces.
Amnesty is calling for stopping all transfers of prisoners to the Afghan authorities.
The torture awareness course was introduced after Ottawa was strongly criticised for its handling of the case of a Canadian who was deported from the US to Syria in 2002.
Syrian-born Maher Arar - who was accused of being an al-Qaeda member - says he was tortured during his 10 months in a Damascus jail - a claim strongly denied by Syria.
A Canadian government inquiry exonerated Mr Arar of any links with terrorist groups. It also showed that Canadian diplomats had not had any formal training on how to detect whether detainees had been abused. After pressure from the US: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N17388465.htm
Lotus... Nice addition to Jacks post!!! Thank you for all of this...:-)
ReplyDeleteGreat addition as I am going to watch this now....
ReplyDelete+1
ReplyDeletedeleted by tarvergen
ReplyDeleteVery decent post that does not just speak about Canada but several other countries - Canada has always maintained an alliance with United States while at the same time has carried out the means of acts in a different manner with regards to torture as well as the remedy in accordance to the laws that Canada along with it's allies carries out war.
ReplyDeleteCanada has never outsourced or otherwise washboarding people. But the Canadian Air Force did indeed train Israel back in history. However this is now and there have been several amendments. The Canadian Government has and always will stand it ground with it's allies.
In no manner did I write this to bring down America, I wrote it last night with regards to Torture. And this is something that is between governments not the people of each and every country.
As canada within the military especially within the air force has resolved many areas but Canada is not a perfect country but it has always been regarded as a peace keeping nation.
This is great material you have here Lotus.
Jack, If America is wrong on this point - and it is - then they need to be brought down a notch or several. They cannot go around thinking they are big enough and powerful enough that international law - and even the law of our own country - does not apply to them.
ReplyDeleteAmerica is a big boy. It can take a bit of criticism by its own citizens as well as the international community, and the last thing it needs is a free pass on something as unequivocally wrong as torture!
Eight years ago for the average civilian no one knew what was happening - not till two years later. Your not wrong your media just was not reporting it down there meanwhile Canadian soldiers were in Afghanistan and dying in the hardest of places while not buying into the Iraq theory. Thereafter Bush and Cheney placed tariffs on trade with Canada.
ReplyDeletePeeks you were not wrong you just were not privy to information at the time when all this began. Then there came a time that all that were involved in Iraq understood why Canada took it's stance with staying in Afghanistan. That was then and this is now.
Canada literally won the first gulf war - however you will never see that placed in any newspaper as well as if you recall first gulf war 90 % of all of the fires that were set up by Saddam were put out by Canadian Fire Fighters.
I believe that every nation does make mistakes but at the same time I do believe that within the international community Cheney especially forged something that was very unjust. I left America right before September 11th and during that time I took the choice that in time "we the people" would come to realize all that took place. As there were many things that had and were taken place that you would never see on your news as even the newscasters felt at this time that if they reported something contrary to what former President Bush was saying they would be unpatriotic...
ReplyDeleteNow it's re appearing due to Cheney. I like to look the other way on these matters but having had a someone in my family that literally knew Powell and many that you never will hear as they all take an oath .....the thought remains that the inception of the worst thing was touching Iraq, as within the first Gulf War for some reason there was a back off on what was done and then young George came in under the directions of his father - meaning hiring on Cheney and Rumsfield.
No fiction....here.
You are I have to come back to this and get my glasses! :)
ReplyDeleteWith the economy like it is, I think the world is figuring out maybe America doesn't have a big enough pocketbook to wield that economic nightstick quite like they have in the past. One can hope.
ReplyDeleteHope & change.... Still hoping.
I feel that Rise was not with the agenda at all. You may see that but in my own opinion I think that Rice was amazingly smart and had a feeling of obligation. She was torn between Powell and her relationship with the Bush family.
ReplyDeleteNancy Pelosi is doing a "cya". But that happens in politics. The main issue here is that were do we go from here? I believe that there are several bases that have been in place since after world war 2 and that with all the survelliance that we have now there could be a shift in bringing back troops. Canada's troops have always since 2002 been in Afganastan as well as in other areas, I would like to mention a force name but I can't.
The main thing here within my write of last night was on torture and accountability and you certainly have wrote about it well.
Will return to this....to read again.
Like any politician in any country I think that Pelosi knew. Just my opinion and I don't think politically that Obama and her really hit it off. Politics will always be what they are. However Cheney and Bush were the first to actually pull in a CIA official and have him do things that were probably what he did not wish to do. He left the office and then wrote a book on it all his name I can't recollect. So who really knows if she got the right information when she did? However, I think she probably did.
ReplyDeleteIf you will notice that there were and are many CIA people now that are no longer there. Co relation the past administration...so it's really a guess of whom really knew and whom didnt - unless Obama opens it all up as Cheney wishes.
(edited by tarvergen)
ReplyDeleteBetter to call for a full-scale investigation like Pelosi is calling for. Bring everything out in the open and let the light of day shine on it.
The CIA is already reneging, saying well maybe everything wasn't divulged.
" as if you recall first gulf war 90 % of all of the fires that were set up by Saddam were put out by Canadian Fire Fighters."... If I recall, my Uncle Red Adair, who is now dead, was the one who went in and cleared all that up!!!... And Lotus... I don't know where you live girlfriend... but If it's in California, run for Senate or Congress, this old gal will voter for you, in a new york heart beat!!! You have it right on the money gal! Love my country, but I want to see these people go down for the count... Don't forget Rumsfeld either! Pres.Obama shouldn't be left holding the bag..
ReplyDeletelol. Peek, my kids have been telling me since they were little boys that I was born to be a politician.
ReplyDeleteOh Lord .. Louisiana!!! YIKES! There are some nice rails there to go out on...lol. Head for Redwood City! ASAP! We need some very opinionated Ladies out here, not to mention honest, liberal, and vocal... You're not afraid to speak your mind... good for you :-D! Hey, try to get into the township there, get a little experience under your belt... Your sons are right! Then as soon as you get that mortgage down to where you need it, pack it up woman, get the hell out of there... I'd look forward to seeing you in the Senate from California... You got my vote... Best of all wishes :-D!
ReplyDeleteLOLOL
ReplyDeleteExactly!
I am not a group I am a person that blogs and I in many ways I wish I never had wrote this.
ReplyDeleteWhy can't there be a discussion without such discord and personal attacks? Torture is so wrong....we're not FASCISTS, NAZI'S or HITLER's SS. This is so f-ked.
ReplyDeletePeople think its okay to torture....it is NOT okay. Cheney et all should be prosecuted for what they did...Hitler and the SS did...or doesn't anyone remember the Nuremberg trials? READ history people....just friggin read.
My apologies if my political views have offended you, Jack.
ReplyDelete+1
ReplyDeleteI wholeheartedly agree.
In no maner at all...
ReplyDeleteThese are all a varied thought and they are interesting I did not intend to offend anyone but I think that perhaps it more valid to go into another avenue with my writes...
ReplyDeleteI think you should continue to express your views....irregardless if it offends someone. You are entitled to your views and opinions.
ReplyDeleteOh heavens, you aren't offending anyone Jack... These are all our own opinions, and like Francesca says, continue to express your views... irregardless if it offends anyone... you are entitled to your views and opinions my friend :-). ((Hugs))
ReplyDeleteNot at all Peeks.
ReplyDelete