From 9/11 onwards, from the White House to main street, Americans have made it sunshine clear that the attacks of that day were not going to warp their country’s values, were not an occasion for raining abuse or vengeance upon America’s Muslim citizens. George W. Bush himself, with the full weight of his office was without stint in proclaiming Islam a “religion of peace.” He even went to a Washington mosque to underline solidarity with American Muslims. Which strips all force from Bloomberg’s lukewarm pleadings that there is now, a near decade on, the need for 13 or 15 storey homage to Islam but a shadow away from ground zero, to supply some sort of architectural proof of tolerance.
How tolerant America has been on this issue is further shown in the near lack of concern and ease which the proponents of the Ground Zero mosque. They think it’s the most normal, casual thing in the world to propose such a building next door to the greatest terror operation ever unleashed in America, executed by Islamist fanatics in the dead heart of America’s greatest city, and involving the murder of thousands, the desolation of families, unspeakable mental and physical sacrifices by first responding fire and police personnel not to mention the financial repercussions the destruction was also designed to achieve.
It is an almost boundlessly tolerant city and society, New York and America that is. But within my own opinion we must make a note on this one very point. A tolerance is being, and has been, shown, towards Islam, which Islam emphatically does not show to other creeds in regions or countries where Islam is predominant. In some Muslim places, a mere Bible in a suitcase is offence. What is the gap? I ponder between the number of mosques in Western, nominally Christian cities, and the number of Christian churches or cathedrals in predominantly Muslim ones? In New York alone, there already are at least a hundred mosques. How many Catholic cathedrals, Shinto shrines or Buddist temples are within Saudi Arabia? Please don’t get me wrong I truly love cultures and people but there is something to be said on how tolerant we are. I think that works within our best interests as well as our core values.
Seemingly tolerance received or enjoyed by Muslims in the West does not seem to stimulate an impulse to afford a reciprocal tolerance effect from Muslims to other religions in countries where Islam is dominant. So, again, America has nothing to prove within this domain.
Perhaps, just perhaps the question now is not “Should it be built?” But, “What is to be built?”
Addendum to post: In no manner do I have any hate with any culture it's very much to the contrary, this write is about Tolerance as I am not sure if this came out right to most or not. I have was raised and lived half my life in New York City and the other half in Canada.
i do not feel that it is the mosque but rather the freedom to build the mosque that needs discussion----the constitution gives freedom of religion in america therefore america cannot be compared to saudi or an other country-------freedom or the facade of freedom is what is at stake-----tim mcveigh (catholic) took down the federal building---would we be having this conversation if a catholic church were to be built close to site of the murrow building?---there is an old sage "what you do to me is your kharma how i react is my kharma"--
ReplyDeleteI was interested in your views about this 'issue.' I'd like to come back at a later time?
ReplyDeleteNo worries at all Lucija...
ReplyDeleteExcellent comment & similar, in a sense, to what I meant to write.
ReplyDeleteI was just going to get offline when I saw your post.
Interesting to say the least however are we not a tolerant society?
ReplyDeleteUS President Obama and New York City Mayor Bloomberg and other city leaders support the Islamic Center. Oz Sultan, spokesman for the Cordoba Initiative has said, "We will continue going forward with the project. It's a project that will build bridges." That sounds like a done deal to me Jack.
ReplyDeleteThis video attempts to clarify in detail what the building will be for: http://www.cordobainitiative.org/
Frani I know now it's past and all but what I was writing on is how we are a tolerant society. It's what shapes our very values. Shall look at your site. Thanks...
ReplyDeleteGreat website, thanks for the share...
Ok. I will make some people mad here. I think Obama has turned his back on America. He cares not what we want. He tells the World how the US is arrogant,hoping to gain the Trust of the Taliban . Forget it. As for the Mosque, it won't be there long. It will suffer the fate of the Twin Towers. I think it is a joke.
ReplyDeleteDaryle to each thier own. This is more on the value of America and society...
ReplyDeleteIt is to bad that in America there are so many intolerant people.They want all the rights for themselves but not for nyome else-yet they nothing of their own right to be in america--to many hate Obama soley because he is black and are very intolerant--america has turned a very dangerouse corner and I hope it can come around the right one again --I never ever thought America would go down this verx intolerant path sad to see it--reminds me how the Inquisition stasrted in the Pay's d'Oc.
ReplyDeleteI find it really sad that you are so intolerant toward others but to each his own--
ReplyDeleteHeidi, you know I don't write much on this but maybe I am an idealist, however I called a friend of mine last week that resides in Syracuse and I think there will always be division, but and I understand what your saying here. You as well are a dual if I recall correctly. For example with Obama I don't even think I can bring up his name as then it does get all to political. Thanks for your say.
ReplyDeleteI work as a contractor with Homeland Security specifically with the Jewish community. I deal with hate crimes all the time. I think the media got behind condemning this project. If it had been built quietly without the media hype there would not have been a problem. This is not a mosque, it is a community center. There will not be calls to prayers here. It is also 2 blocks over and one block down from ground zero. It is not on a normal walking path to visit ground zero. In saying this I think the project is a mistake because of the media surrounding it. They have fueled hatred against it before ground is even broken to build it. I believe it will be the target of repeated hate crimes and potentially injuries to people coming and going from the building. Hate is an ugly thing. Keep in mind the people who committed the act of terrorism on 9/11 died in the event. No one living today few in any of those planes, yet all Muslims have been branded in the eyes of most Americans as terrorists.
ReplyDeleteYour right on the local as the media really hyped this up Sharon. Muslims have and well it all depends on where you reside in the states I feel, and I lived there and well I don't write much on this but all in all we are a more tolerable society I feel. There always will be division and discourse. As well for myself, my former wife was latin american and my own experience while living there was that NY was a very tolerable area. Where are we going as a society I ponder...
ReplyDeleteThe social structure of the US is changing. It is becoming more and more hate based and splintered. The media and the political climate are urging people to react violently against each other. Hate has become mainstream now and it is a terrifying prospect for humanity.
ReplyDeleteI know this is a touchy subject and it's admirable you brought this up, Jack. It seems to me that places like Saudi Arabia are lost causes to human rights and religious tolerence.
ReplyDeleteBut this extreme example of "Wahabbi Islam" or the fanaticalism of The Taliban are not the only reprsentaitons of Islam in the world.
Of course we hold ourselves to a higher standard of tolerence--we are--along with Canada--literally a historic refuge for people from all over the world. May we never stop being so, however this mosque situation plays out. I feel we must judge people always by their actions and not our worst fears.
Doug the main premise here was the tolerance. That value and yeah you read it entirely. As we really rise to a different value one of a different tolerance on that everyone has there own rights and freedoms. And as well, perhaps I am an idealist however the fanatics don't represent anything but an extreme perspective. Doug, I do believe we do hold a much more tolerable way. I don't often write on these subjects much anymore as it becomes a debate but within America, I do find that there is some sort of transition but it's not only within America and within ground zero, I think that so often the media can actually be fanatical as they as well will sensationalize something such as this where Sharon had pointed out how the place where the mosque is going up is not at ground zero yet the media seems to fanatically sensationalize it.
ReplyDeleteNow that it will go ahead it illustrates the tolerance of what America is, rather than what America isn’t.
that is how I see it to :) and I guess living oversees I can see the trees better and I find it sad
ReplyDeleteSome of us who are in the US feel the hatre pressing down on us from all angles. Even being in my car and having people drivign with no regard for human life. It is all about them and what they want. No one else matters anymore. It is sad.
ReplyDeleteI agree with jadedruid.
ReplyDeleteSeveral aspects of this issue are quite surprising to me. A country which was supposedly founded on freedom of religion is now showing prejudice in that area. People seem to think a mosque=all Muslims=terrorism. All religions have examples of people not living up to the ideals preached. I find it shocking that a place is called sacred because a terrible crime occurred there. Since when does killing create sacredness? Life is sacred, and above all spiritual life which is practicing love, peacemaking, forgiveness, freedom from prejudice.
I don't see on what grounds a Muslim could banish the Bible when it says in the Qur'an that the Torah and Gospel were given by God and that Mohammad confirms the previous prophets. Religion and culture get all mixed up and neither have the Truth.
Thank you so much for the link. This had been my understanding. Sadly, many Americans don't understand the hand held out in hopeful friendship. Their antagonism & paranoia prevents this. "They' have predicted dire consequences from this mosque. Sad.
ReplyDeleteI had a contact whom I believed was fair, just. He posted incendiary cartoons about women in this country wearing burkas. I have said it before, & I will say it again, that there is no such thing as a 'radical Muslim,' or a 'radical Christian.' Radical isn't any religion.
I am finding these comments very encouraging.
ReplyDeleteThinking..."I find it shocking that a place is called sacred because a terrible crime occurred there. Since when does killing create sacredness? "
I can't believe there's an inch of space on this earth where killing hasn't occurred. In that sense, perhaps the entire planet is sacred ground.
We're more aware of the more recent, but the smell of blood throughout history is everywhere.
If only others learned from the mistakes of the past, that famous 9/11 wouldn't happened. So many lives and families torned by it ... yet, they are aIl still fighting for a cause that I can't understand. Doubt if anyone ever ... ever, ever ... succeed to get to the supposed reasons why they are doing it. If I could only wish, I will put in each every heart the "Love" ... love that is slowly dying to each and everyone.
ReplyDeleteKilling fellow brothers isn't the answer ...
Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." as quoted from the bible (as you know DJ I am faith based but not to just one religion) and life is sacred. Within this my feeling and what I did wish to write about was the tolerance that did come out but it did take some for it to be done. And I hope it was not done just for the sake of illustrating that America can be tolerant within the eyes of the world as I don't think this is the case at all within New York City as now it is passed. Racial profiling will always exist to some extent, I would hope it's digressing as time goes on. Myself, I have friends that are Muslims. Yet here too, within society you will always have different thoughts by different folks.
ReplyDeleteThere are many different perspectives on this. What I see DJ, is that New York illustrated a type of tolerance despite all, meanwhile there are some countries even today - that if you are Christian it does not go over well. Not all but some. In Saudi Arabia do you think you would find one Christian church - no. So you would think this decision does send a message or more probable, it doesn't but within this there is a tolerance. However religion has always caused many wars and as the saying goes never talk about religion or politics but now and then why not.
For the most part I think this was far overblown by the media, as the Mosque ironically is not at Ground Zero. But it got very political needless to say. Yet Obama finally came into play and I think he had much to do with putting this all to an end. Many hate the president right now but sometimes for all the wrong reasons. When I was in Montreal, there were a few places where two places where there was a christian place of worship as well as a muslim place of worship both right on the same block.
Something to think about.
I worked part time within the Twin Towers I kid you not and I lost two friends but it's past now, I was already back in Canada and when I saw this happen I was on the phone immediately to see if my former wife was alright, if two good friends were alright and that was a time that I shall never forget. I worked aside of my full time job part time for a company doing work in data basing and research Deloitte and Touche. But within New York and for all the families that have lost one it's a very touchy matter and it's very understandable, yet we I hope we have learned from it rather than digressed.
ReplyDeleteI think for the most part this is still an area that many wish not to think about as it literally changed so many things over the last ten years. Yet if it hadnt happened we would not be as secure as we are today. Unfortunately that seems so often to be the case. As history proves.
Lucija, we are more aware now, and we do know things so fast that history comes not in months but within minutes sometimes, and I ponder if that gives way to good judgement if you know what I mean.
ReplyDelete"I ponder if that gives way to good judgement if you know what I mean."
ReplyDeleteI don't think that it does, Jack. We need time to investigate all of the facts, to evaluate in order to make wise judgments. Instead, the media, (& others), evoke a state of hysteria in which no minds can be clear.
We were led to believe (by Bush) that Saddam, Iraq, were responsible. His fear tactics & deceit about WMD threw us into an invasion with consequences from which we still suffer, & recovery will take many years.
We cannot recover all of the lives lost for nothing, & personally, I believe 9/11 can't compare to the blood on his hands.
Ok...I understand what you mean, Lucija.
ReplyDeleteWoW.
ReplyDeleteI told a friend about this blog, & this is the PM he sent me:
ReplyDelete"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
What are we arguing about?
for me, it is respect.
ReplyDeletethe sacredness of ground zero isn't in the hatred and violence, it is the miniscule fragments of human remains that signify the lives loss there.
i wouldn't put a strip joint or a gay bar near a mosque - out of respect.
the joy in my constitutional freedoms isn't just that they exist but that i celebrate them in ways that honor how they were formed. i don't use my freedom of speech, only because i can; i use it for the betterment of lives.
this is also seen in those that demonstrate at the funerals of soldiers - afterall, it is "their right". but is it respectful? are they using their "freedom" respectful of others? the answer is a resounding "no".. they are using it, because they can.
we seem to have complete disregard to others.. in the name of "our" freedom.
there was a cathedral adjacent to the murrah building - it too was destroyed in the bombing. there was a statue built on the site of the cathedral entitled "and jesus wept" - as did i, at the site of destruction, hatred, and loss of life.
ReplyDeleteI don't see any arguments Lucija.
ReplyDeleteSuzy, yes! What you have wrote here is certainly so very true. As it's all within the respect and right that we have as our freedoms. I think that there has always been a gain as we have always exercised predominantly the very core values within what makes up our very own freedoms. I think it's respect coupled with as Doug mentioned that ideal of the Golden Rule. I don't think that what we you deem as freedom is in any way a disregard it's with regards and it's on a level that is parallel to the what we deem as righteous and as well freedom.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the post as I think we shall never forget, yet we shall never judge things by way of what comes about by the media. Thank you for sharing this picture.
ReplyDeletedriving across country to move to arizona from chicago, my mother and i stopped in OKC. the day was cloudy and gray and, although surrounded by city sounds, i remember nothing but a heavy silence with an undertone of silent screams. i went past each chair, symbolizing a life lost; out of respect for the family that will never greet them again. at the site of the day care center, a light rain began to fall.. cleansing - but it felt as if even the heavens couldn't help but shed a tear.
ReplyDeletenever forget 9/11...
when i say that, it isn't out of anger (although i feel great anger) or hatred... it is with a sense of loss: loss of life, loss of innocence. each 9/11, i have spent time that day in prayer - looking at the faces of those that lost their life on that day. they, their families, deserve that respect.
Lisa I truly know what you mean and we will never forget. I literally worked within the twin towers - not kidding....really I am not kidding. But we live and learn. I don't think much about it now but when I returned back into Canada and saw this, I can't begin to describe within words all that was going on for me. It was a life changing event. And I wish I had pictures from those times but I don't I thought the best thing is to get on with it yet honor what had taken place every September 11th. I had several very decent pm's sent to me when I wrote on this as many saw it as political. Your thoughts give much thought from this end.
ReplyDeleteThe families do deserve that respect, and I believe that Ground Zero has taken so long as no one really does know exactly what to place there. Perhaps for now to leave it just as it is - is alright. Just perhaps..
Thank you for this, Suzy. Freedom of speech hasn't only been disrespectful, it has been incendiary, it has incited violence. Written words are effective in doing the same.
ReplyDeleteI wrote a blog in my group about censorship, inquiring what people thought. I 'feel' a line should be drawn somewhere, perhaps like crying fire in a crowded theatre. Yet we must maintain this freedom we have, even though it's abused.
"I told a friend about this blog, & this is the PM he sent me:"
ReplyDeleteThese were his words, & he had a point to make. We have both seen arguments; "I" did not say there were any here.
Thank you for the article, Jack. This is the sort of thing my friend was referring to. There have been some really horrid blogs about this, & about Muslims in general.
ReplyDelete"You would think, if you were not a silly person, that if the plan was good enough for those who were the very neighbors of the 9/11 atrocity, it would be good enough for most everybody in America. But, unfortunately, America is full of people seething with resentments and looking for the political means to express them. And what better than this?"
Yeah Lucija, when I logged on and read some things this is getting very large and well it's I didnt realize how large an issue it has come to be Lucija...I guess I am an idealist myself as it's has taken by surprise...
ReplyDeleteSome of the most interesting writings on this subject matter that seeming continues to be growing...
ReplyDeletehttp://dnoakes.multiply.com/journal/item/357/Leonard_Pitts_on_the_Decline_of_Political_Discourse_in_America_
http://scootch2.multiply.com/journal/item/121/Text_is_never_like_the_real_thing...
http://starfishred.multiply.com/journal/item/3092/3092
There are few friends of mine here were I do live and there really is not a differentiation from my point of view. She is the daughter of a good friend of mine and I don't wish to place get into the politics of this but I thought it was worth a re-post....
ReplyDeleteA beautiful child.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the link to starfishred.
Most welcome, there are many writes seemingly on all of this and we have come to being a society that is pondering perhaps the meaning of the past which leads us up to September 11th.
ReplyDeleteStarfish/Heidi does write and really keep up to day with areas that do bring up an array of thoughts...
Heidi is incredibly well informed. Her blog was refreshing.
ReplyDeleteI believe that when Saudi Arabia called on Bush Senior, for help when invaded by Saddam, this started. The first Gulf War. The second wasn't a war.
I believe that OIL has always been the main issue.
Good I am not a group my blog that is. But I loved your writes.
ReplyDeleteHeidi like many are very interesting to say the least I did throw on this three links, Dougs write, Hieidi's write and your write. It's morning and it was all to interesting to read all that was said. Some copy and past where as some will give there own thoughts regardless it's a test perhaps of not just America, but America and all societies.....got to get my eggs and toast and I literally was taken by the reading of them. Especially yours. As you don't write that often and it was very interesting to see.